In 2008, Robby and Björn Dunkerbeck spoke to John Carter about their rivalry, how they deal with defeats and how they look back on the duels. Robby was 45 at the time, Björn was 39 and still competing in the World Cup. A lot has happened in the 15 years since that interview - both have got older, had to battle with injuries and have focussed on other areas. Nevertheless, the meeting of the giants remains a great testimony to the times and gives an insight into the World Cup of the 80s and 90s. Garnished with pictures of a joint session between Naish and Dunkerbeck as part of the interview. Enjoy!
Windsurfing legends are not a dime a dozen. And there are none bigger than Robby Naish and Björn Dunkerbeck. Together they have won well over 100 World Cups. Icons that the media and the industry like to show off like fighting cocks. When great athletes rival each other, athletes like John McEnroe and Björn Borg, Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali, Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher, Lance Armstrong and Jan Ullrich or Sebastian Coe and Steve Ovett, we live every moment with them, euphoric when they win, suffering when luck beckons on the other side. Both Dunkerbeck and Naish are still outstanding athletes today. Their rivalry on the water over a decade ago made them legends and fuelled the sport. They both had the same skills, but put them on show with contrasting styles. Even today, they are not resting on their laurels.
Robby, the Hawaiian waterman par excellence, spends more time on the water than he did during his World Cup days. And Björn, the ultimate competition machine, competes with the best in the world in slalom and speed. After all these years of rivalry between the public's favourite and style master and the ice-cold giant and most successful professional windsurfer of all time, can the two now look each other in the eye in friendship?
Photographer and author John Carter brings the two competition cocks and family men together again - the last battle of the giants.
Robby, when did Björn shake your royal sceptre for the first time?
ROBBY: He caused me problems for the first time in 1987. He started winning in 1988. I first noticed it during a Mistral importers' meeting in Bahia Feliz on Gran Canaria in 1982. We went to Pozo to surf. Back then, it was a rubbish dump with lots of wind - super hardcore. I went with my 3.7 and Björn was also out there.
BJÖRN: Yes, that was when I was 13. My parents had a Mistral surf school in Bahia Feliz back then.
And Robby was the dominator in the World Cup?
ROBBY: Yes, that's right. From 1981 to 1983, I won almost everything.
BJÖRN: But until 1987 you were practically the best.
ROBBY: But then everything happened very quickly. Honestly, I knew how good the boy was. He was so good that I wanted to bring him into our team. We already shaped a board for Björn in 1982. I brought the board to Fuerte in 1983. I was too slow. F2 already had him under contract.
BJÖRN: My parents changed their surf school from Mistral to F2. They knew Peter Brockhaus very well. He then sponsored me. The Naish board then had to go back to Hawaii. (laughs)
ROBBY: I didn't dare give him the board.
BJÖRN: I don't know who was sadder, Robby or me. (laughs)
ROBBY: Back then, you followed me around like a dog in a wave, copying everything I did. He was just a kid, but he was a ripper and we were almost on the same team. Then came Guadeloupe.
BJÖRN: No, I won the first World Cup in San Francisco.
ROBBY: I can't remember that. But I do remember Guadeloupe: I won the overall that year, but I realised: Shit, something's changing. No, with Björn I knew that the kid wasn't just going to win an event and disappear. He spoke seven languages at the age of twelve, he came to win. (laughs)
BJÖRN: That's probably an exaggeration: When I was 17, I spoke five languages.
ROBBY: In any case, you scared me. You weren't just any small animal.
Björn, did Robby intimidate you back then?
BJÖRN: I was impressed by everyone. Especially Robby, Ken Winner and Jürgen Hönscheid. Fortunately, I had a lot of national and international competition experience before the World Cup. On land, I respected Robby a lot. On the water, I didn't give a shit who was racing against me. I was out to win, nothing more and nothing less.
So that's where the real rivalry began?
BJÖRN: After 1987, we became real rivals - alongside Nevin Sayre and Anders Bringdal. Sure, it's hard to lose when you've been winning for so long.
ROBBY: We both wanted to win. Björn thought the same as me: as the runner-up, you're the first loser. Sure, I enjoyed competing and winning, but coming second was no fun, third place was even worse and fourth place was no fun at all. I already felt inside that someone would come one day. When Björn came, it was a slap in the face. But it spurred me on to do even better. We were both tense, never thought about parties or other sports. It was all about winning. The media and the rival teams, Mistral and F2, intensified it all. I suffered my first slump in the course race. Anders Bringdal then continued this battle with Björn.
BJÖRN: If we had all been friends, it wouldn't have been good for the sporting spirit. You can't give anyone out there any space. I was only interested in winning. Later it was about more: about the gap to second place in the race. This fire burned inside me for a long time.
Robby, you must have hated Björn at some point, right?
ROBBY: I didn't like him at all. (laughs) But we didn't know each other either.
You've never spoken to each other on the beach?
ROBBY: Björn didn't talk to anyone, and I only spoke to very few people. We were both introverted characters. It took me 20 years of travelling to open up. For me, it was all about winning. I didn't have a social network around me. I knew a lot of people, but I didn't even know the names of many of the Worldcuppers. I always just said 'howzit' to everyone. It was no disrespect, but I had come to windsurfing. The competition was everything to me. No, I never spoke to Björn. Today we can laugh about it.
BJÖRN: When I started, I was a child and Robby was a man. We were the same age. I can well imagine that it was hard for him to be beaten by a child. (laughs)
ROBBY: Especially because he was taller than me. There's nothing worse for me!
Björn, you were also called Iceman or Terminator. What did you think of that?
BJÖRN: I didn't care. I really didn't care what the magazines wrote. The fact that they called me Terminator wasn't bad either, Schwarzenegger and all that. I laughed about it, I was never offended. Half of the things journalists write are good, the other half are bad. The important thing is that something is written after victories.
ROBBY: Every release is a good release.
Björn, are you a shy person?
BJÖRN: No, I'm not shy, I just don't open up to everyone. I have my close friends and otherwise I build a kind of wall around myself. That was also my recipe for success in the competition: No one could recognise my weak points. It made me stronger.
You two were always in the spotlight. Didn't it get on your nerves?
ROBBY: Not me, it would have scared me if it had been the other way round.
BJÖRN: It was part of the job. I had to do it and I sold myself as best I could. Of course, I'm not Schumacher, you know! (laughs)
ROBBY: I can't speak for Björn, but windsurfing and everything to do with success was my life. There was no guarantee that the following year would be the same. I took what came. I wanted this lifestyle and I am so happy to maintain it to this day. I do what I love and get paid for it. You can't get much luckier than that. My love for windsurfing goes further than any other option you have in life. I could quit overnight, drive racing cars, go golfing, but I can't and don't want to. I get up in the morning and want nothing more than to go surfing off Hookipa. Back then I was one of the youngest professional athletes in the world and I thought like that, and now I'm one of the oldest professional athletes and I think like that. I'm respected by pros half my age for what I do on the water.
And why are you no longer competing?
ROBBY: The time was just right. I could still keep up in the wave today, but back then I only lived for the points in the competition. Now I can savour the sport to the full.
Björn, when are you going to stop?
BJÖRN: I've found a good mix of competition and fun. Professionally, I now only concentrate on slalom and speed. I don't want to come second again like last year. (laughs)
How did you feel when Kevin Pritchard dethroned you in 2000?
BJÖRN: After twelve years of winning, I thought: You can't be serious. Only I am allowed to win. (laughs) No, it really wasn't a problem. It was also very close.
ROBBY: He didn't finish 15th.
Today Albeau dominates in slalom and speed.
BJÖRN: He had a good year in 2007. And he's my toughest opponent in 2008.
Does that appeal to you even more now with Antoine?
BJÖRN: Today you are limited, you only have the choice of two boards and four sails in the slalom. The bigger and stronger you are, the more difficult the choice is.
ROBBY: We're talking to a man who once travelled with 20 boards.
BJÖRN: Back then, we travelled with a lot of boards. We were able to choose the best material for the conditions. Today, there's the luck factor of choosing the right material for the heat. I don't want to diminish Antoine's success. He has good equipment, he's younger and has a lot of competition experience. Nobody can take that away from him. He wants to be the best. He has what it takes, and yes, that makes it all the more interesting for me.
ROBBY: Seriously, since Björn and I, Antoine is the first to consistently dominate in the speed disciplines. That's good for the sport. Wins here and there don't boost the sport. As I said. It's motivating for every competitor to beat a dominator, whether it's Antoine or..... (Björn interrupts)
BJÖRN: He will have to fight this year. Let's put it this way: it won't be as easy for him as it was last year. No way! (Editor's note: The interview was conducted before the first World Cup in 2008).
After all the years of rivalry between you, wasn't there a moment when you dropped the barriers and went for a lift together?
ROBBY: A few times, but his alcohol tolerance is better than mine. He's drunk me under the table more than once. (both laugh)
Is the standard of windsurfing better today than it used to be?
BJÖRN: It's different. It used to be difficult and it is difficult today. But today there are more good windsurfers in all disciplines.
Why were you so unbeatable in the past?
BJÖRN: That was due to the mixture of my attitude and the good team. I never wanted to stay at the same level, I always wanted to go further. And Robby, how were you able to dominate for so long?
ROBBY: I came at the right time, to the right place. If Björn had turned up ten years earlier, I would have shown him the tail lights. He would have been too big for the material. My size and style were perfect for my time. The sport literally grew on me. The equipment changed and bigger surfers had better leverage. That was the time for Björn. He also didn't surf like a gorilla in the wave for his size. We were also both lucky as athletes. If you're really good, you can still control your luck. Today's decisions determine what happens tomorrow.
BJÖRN: I was lucky that my mum loved the beach so much and really wanted to move to the Canary Islands. And you Robby?
ROBBY: I'm from California and my dad was a surfer who wanted to move to Hawaii, so Hawaii it was! I could still live in California today...
BJÖRN: ...and be a doctor. (laughs)
ROBBY: Yes, you also have to be lucky in life.
I remember that you two were in the final in Pozo for five years.
ROBBY: Yes, yes, losing is bitter. I've lost to a handful of people. Losing to Björn was particularly bitter, but I always said to myself: It was Björn. But when I lost to someone like Nik Baker, it was fucking shitty
So you didn't go home and swear at Björn?
ROBBY: I would come home and smash things, no matter who I lost to. I spent years smashing up my cars. I threw rocks at the judges' tower in Pozo. I almost beat up the judges in Omezaki.
Why were you so hot-tempered?
ROBBY: Because I was usually right. If I'd been driving really badly, I wouldn't have said anything. Well, I was very self-centred anyway. I never went off on people. I just hit a wall, a door, kicked my car. I hit things. That was good for me. That showed me: I still have it in me, this will, I want to win, I hit things, that's how important it is for me. (laughs)
BJÖRN: Your temperament is still there, the fire is burning!
ROBBY: Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Björn, did you hit things too?
BJÖRN: No, I was actually a good loser.
ROBBY: I was terrible!
BJÖRN: I would analyse my defeat. I never kicked or hit anything.
ROBBY: You hurt things. I just hit them. I can't hit as hard as you can. (laughs)
BJÖRN: I've won over 100 World Cups, it's not always like the first victory. That's why I was able to take the defeats. But that still doesn't mean I enjoy losing.
Are you afraid of getting old?
ROBBY: Yes! More in front of the number than the physical. I don't look in the mirror often because I feel much better than I look. I'm fucking fit! I have no injuries, no complaints. I've never missed a competition due to injury. I may not surf today with the strength I used to, but I think I surf better today than I did back then. I surf more smoothly, I calculate more intelligently. I don't feel old, but I'm approaching a scary number. As long as I don't look in the mirror, everything is fine!
BJÖRN: I'm 39 and I don't know anyone 39 years old who is as well preserved as I am. Windsurfing keeps me young and strong. That's what my father always said. He's 64 and surfs four or five times a week.
ROBBY: You can surf until you're 100!
What other goals do you have?
ROBBY: To be completely honest, I never really had goals in the narrow sense. When you hear these professional motivational speakers and success coaches, it's all about goal setting. I haven't set a single goal in my entire life. I'm living a dream. I would describe myself as a dream chaser rather than a goal setter. Goals don't work for me because I don't want to be disappointed. I am always satisfied with what I have, precisely because I am an eternal pessimist. I always expect the worst and if it doesn't happen - great! The greatest luxury for me is not money, a car or possessions. The greatest luxury is getting up in the morning and doing what I enjoy. When I go freeriding, my heart is still pumping adrenalin through my veins.
Are you afraid of big waves?
ROBBY: Definitely more scared than I used to be. I get really nervous on Jaws days. I don't need as much adrenaline to experience the feelings of happiness. Maybe that's part of getting old. But I'm more drawn to the water than ever. With my time and money, I could easily go heli-snowboarding in Canada. I don't want to, because then I might miss out on a good winter's day in Hawaii. You don't have to motivate me to go surfing.
Björn, you don't seem to have any motivation problems either.
BJÖRN: No, on the contrary. I want to be the first person to pass the 50-knot mark and windsurf for the rest of my life. But I also want to spend a lot of time with my family, my children and my parents and stay healthy - those are my goals.
How is your new family, Robby?
ROBBY: It's just madness. I don't want to devalue my first daughter Nani. I was a young father back then. I always said: She's the best thing that could have happened to me. She was perhaps the reason why I held up so well in my career, why I was so focussed. As an old father, you appreciate many things more. I used to be much more self-centred and therefore missed out on a lot. I love Nani dearly and we can talk to each other well, but I have much more time for Christina, I'm there for her, physically and mentally. Children are a real gift. I am also happy that my wife Katie blossoms every second with our child and shows me her love. Imagine being married to a guy like me for 17 years, the most self-centred person ever, no in the universe. She was patient and waited until the time was right. I'm grateful for that. My father Rick always says: "Life isn't fair because I have such an angel for a wife, even though I was such a little shit as a child. I don't deserve that. (laughs)
Which little or big shits could grow into legends like you?
ROBBY: That's really hard to say. Guys like Kai Lenny, he's a future super hero, no doubt about it. Kauli is a real character with a lot of talent. He would have to focus more to become a legend, but he's still young, he has time.
Do you regret anything in your life?
BJÖRN: I made a few small mistakes. When I was 20, I would have liked to have had the experience I have today. You have to pay the toll, you have to earn it. Mistakes are part of life. If you don't make mistakes, you don't learn anything and you don't appreciate when you do good things.
ROBBY: If I had to do it all over again, I'd even queue up for it. If I could, I would live my life the way I live it for all eternity. If I had to die tomorrow, I would say: Thank you, it was great!
This interview first appeared in surf 9/2008 - see note at the beginning of the text!
